Going through some negative feedback while planning the next 4.0 update

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Gavrushka
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Re: Going through some negative feedback while planning the next 4.0 update

Post by Gavrushka » Thu, 14. Jan 21, 06:53

Slashman wrote:
Thu, 14. Jan 21, 03:32
Graaf wrote:
Thu, 14. Jan 21, 01:08
GCU Grey Area wrote:
Wed, 13. Jan 21, 20:20
Have you actually tried it?
No because I haven't played after Dec 29, 2018. The game was boring and uninteresting and no patch notes made it look like that changed. More like the opposite. And I'm not going to spend more money on an already overpriced game to gat more base content. It's not my fault that due to their poor choice of game design they have problems in getting content available, and I'm certainly not paying extra for that.
Wait. You haven't played the game in 2 whole years???? What and how can you give advice and direction to a thing you have no idea what state it is in?

And why are you even trying? What do you think they will change at this stage to make you come back to the game? I'd just move on were I you. Not that I expect you to take my advice or anything. I just don't get it. :gruebel:
Haha, yeah, many a lower jaw suffered severe bruising as they bounced off the floor after reading that.

I have to agree that the game back in 2018 wasn't the easiest one to play, but it certainly has transformed a lot since. It is unusual for someone to continue posting their disdain for a game they haven't played in over 2 years, but it is absolutely their right to do so.

There is something peculiar about X games that has disgruntled former players loiter and continue posting...

...I will see that if the transformation over the last 2 years hasn't piqued Graaf's interest, nothing in the future is going to change that, unfortunately. It will never be a game they wish to play. I feel.

Maybe X5...

But on the topic of Zyarth's lack of resources: - It was a great call. It gives a player with that start an invested and immersive interest in getting them resources. I know this because I'm in a new game starting with that faction. And I'm having a hoot! :)
“What in Father’s name have you done? They’re not-”

“Everyone's fine, I’ve just paused them,” Lucifer said. “It’s a little trick I learned in my prison. Have you ever tried counselling a mass murderer when ten thousand other inmates are screaming and wailing?”

Ten thousand inmates, and only one guard… Michael had always felt profound sympathy for Lucifer. Yes, she’d transgressed, but her punishment was likely to stretch to eternity, even if Raphael thought otherwise.

helix0311
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Re: Going through some negative feedback while planning the next 4.0 update

Post by helix0311 » Thu, 14. Jan 21, 07:45

No idea if the devs still read through this thread, but I thought I would post my impressions. A couple notes - I've never played any X game before this, X4 is my first. I've still sunk hundreds (currently 620+) hours into it across two different saves, a 1.0 and a 3.30 save. My feedback all relates back to the 3.30 experience.
  • As a new player, the UI and game system descriptions leave a lot to be desired. What does Intercept do? I'm 600 hours into playing this game, and only recently figured out what it meant.
  • More history in-game would be fantastic. I get the sense that there's a lot of things that have happened in the X Universe, but I don't actually know about them. I hear references to Jump Gate Shutdowns and Terran Conflicts, and I really have no idea what those are. Unfortunately, X4 is a product of its own success here, because I enjoy the game enough I don't want to go back through and play the previous ones to find out the story. Even if it's just an encyclopedia entry.
  • Some ship re-tuning needs to be done. When you dig into the stats, L cargo ships don't make much sense, among others. Why have a Pulsar when the Quasar exists?
  • As above, but for combat ship roles - I think they need to be better defined. Tweaking stats across chassis lines to make them better fit into roles would be a good start. Give some ships better turret tracking (for anti-fighter duties), some better missile damage (for bomber wings), and capital ships might give bonuses to all subordinate pilot skills. Making ships different across different racial lines would be excellent. The Split ships are a good example of this.
  • Please, please improve AI combat abilities in-sector.
  • In relation to above, making ships more intelligently engage would be awesome. To see my cap ship fleet engage a Xenon M when three K's and an I gate in system because the M gated in first is... disheartening.
  • More aggressive AI, and increasing Xenon production capabilities over time would also be excellent. Right now the Xenon are less a threat and more of a speedbump on the way to galactic domination.
  • Increasing the general capabilities of the faction Navies - the HOP, in both of my games, essentially dominate the Argon, Godrealm, AND the southern Xenon because of their resource allocation and aggressiveness. That's a well-tuned faction, but I think the others need some help.
  • I'd like to see more political systems in-game. Even though I'm 'Allied' to every faction - that's only because I'm willing to trade with them. That shouldn't really do much; meanwhile, I'm actively defending ZYA space and fueling their attack against Eleventh Hour and other Argon systems. I manage this right now by only purchasing ZYA blueprints, so they're the only ones that buy my ships. I'd much rather the 'Alliance' be something I enter into willingly, and not be able to ally with two enemy factions.
  • Likewise, I'd like to be able to see the war status between factions, and actively participate as a way to gain reputation and/or cement the alliance with a faction.
  • More, and better missions. For a game (I think?) about tactical space combat, I get VERY few missions regarding this aspect of the game. If I'm wrong and X4 is more of a Tycoon game, then that's my bad; but my best experience in this game is zipping around in my modded Chimera, doing 750m/s, leading a wing of interceptors in the middle of a titantic battle in Ianamus Zura IV. That was emergent gameplay, but I'd like to see more of these experiences as missions.
  • As above, but specifically for the story missions. So many go here, talk to this person missions. Go here, pick up this thing. Go here, place a satellite. Way more space combat missions, and especially fleet combat missions, are needed.
  • I read that this is being included as well, but the fleet UI needs to be changed to make controlling fleets much easier, while also allowing for more control.
  • I read somewhere that this is coming in a future release, but making system ownership mean something would be great as well.
Right now, I play with mods to get most of these features. I'd love to see more of them in the base game. Having said all that, I think X4 is a great game, and I've obviously sunk a lot of time into it, and will continue to do so.

Slashman
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Re: Going through some negative feedback while planning the next 4.0 update

Post by Slashman » Thu, 14. Jan 21, 09:15

Gavrushka wrote:
Thu, 14. Jan 21, 06:53

Haha, yeah, many a lower jaw suffered severe bruising as they bounced off the floor after reading that.

I have to agree that the game back in 2018 wasn't the easiest one to play, but it certainly has transformed a lot since. It is unusual for someone to continue posting their disdain for a game they haven't played in over 2 years, but it is absolutely their right to do so.
For my part, I didn't play it during the first year and only jumped on board when Split Vendetta launched. I know I avoided a lot of the frustration that others found during the launch of the game. And if there is one thing that I find disappointing it is that Egosoft continues to have bad launches. I honestly don't know how I would go about correcting this apart from putting the game in early access, and that is something that they seem reluctant to do.
There is something peculiar about X games that has disgruntled former players loiter and continue posting...

...I will see that if the transformation over the last 2 years hasn't piqued Graaf's interest, nothing in the future is going to change that, unfortunately. It will never be a game they wish to play. I feel.
I honestly don't think that X5 will do it. One thing that is obvious is that Egosoft is moving in a specific direction with the X games. What some of the old gamers want is a return to the plots and hooks of the old X games while having everything in the new ones as well. Honestly that cannot work. In creating a real background simulation for X4, they have locked themselves out of spawning in fleets specifically for missions and patrols and for sector defense etc. That is gonna prevent you from having super exciting escort missions where you fend off waves of pirates to protect 3 freighters until they jump into another sector and reach the station they were headed for and then despawn. Basically, most of the things that made up the old X games are either gone or drastically changed. And that more than anything else is what makes the old folks who are stuck in the ways of the old games angry.
If you want a different perspective, stand on your head.

Gregorovitch
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Re: Going through some negative feedback while planning the next 4.0 update

Post by Gregorovitch » Thu, 14. Jan 21, 14:09

helix0311 wrote:
Thu, 14. Jan 21, 07:45
[*]When you dig into the stats, L cargo ships don't make much sense, among others.
If you just look at the cost, speed and capacity of L freighters compared to M freighters that is the impression you get. But it's not actually as simple as that. When an L freighter strikes a deal for a full load it gets paid top dollar for the whole load. If instead you had five M freighters then the each subsequent deal after the first will be at a lower price plus other NPC traders will be potentially be able to jump in a grab a piece of the pie. So in certain situations L freighters will not only sell more units of a ware but also at a higher price per unit over time. You also have to factor in that although M freighters are faster than Ls they are not five times faster (except in cases were a substantial part of the route can be taken over highways).

What this means is that L freighters are absolutely terrible for delivering small (i.e. M sized) loads but conversely absolutely wonderful for delivering full L sized loads. It's a strictly horses for courses situation. An example application for L freighters is mining stations because customers for refined metal and silicon wafers usually require large quantities of them at a time. In this case L freighters pay for themselves hand over fist unless you over saturate the market.

GCU Grey Area
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Re: Going through some negative feedback while planning the next 4.0 update

Post by GCU Grey Area » Thu, 14. Jan 21, 14:58

Gregorovitch wrote:
Thu, 14. Jan 21, 14:09
helix0311 wrote:
Thu, 14. Jan 21, 07:45
[*]When you dig into the stats, L cargo ships don't make much sense, among others.
If you just look at the cost, speed and capacity of L freighters compared to M freighters that is the impression you get. But it's not actually as simple as that. When an L freighter strikes a deal for a full load it gets paid top dollar for the whole load. If instead you had five M freighters then the each subsequent deal after the first will be at a lower price plus other NPC traders will be potentially be able to jump in a grab a piece of the pie. So in certain situations L freighters will not only sell more units of a ware but also at a higher price per unit over time. You also have to factor in that although M freighters are faster than Ls they are not five times faster (except in cases were a substantial part of the route can be taken over highways).

What this means is that L freighters are absolutely terrible for delivering small (i.e. M sized) loads but conversely absolutely wonderful for delivering full L sized loads. It's a strictly horses for courses situation. An example application for L freighters is mining stations because customers for refined metal and silicon wafers usually require large quantities of them at a time. In this case L freighters pay for themselves hand over fist unless you over saturate the market.
Agree with all that Gregorovitch wrote above. However, though all that is significant, it's not the primary reason I use L (& XL) freighters almost exclusively. I prefer them simply because they're much more resilient ships, with heavier shields & significantly thicker hulls. Better armed too. They can generally take care of themselves if attacked by smaller ships (in the case of XL's, have seen them successfully hold off SCA destroyers for long enough for me to send help). They can also use defence drones, or even carry a squadron of fighters, if I'm planning to send them anywhere particularly risky. As a package, L's having more cargo + thicker hull + better shields & guns + docks for S ships/drones seems reasonably well balanced when compared to M freighters. Also, because I need far fewer of them, compared to using M's instead, I can afford to mod every single one of them to give them extra speed (Polisher chassis + Reaver engines is my standard L freighter configuration).

Graaf
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Re: Going through some negative feedback while planning the next 4.0 update

Post by Graaf » Thu, 14. Jan 21, 18:23

Slashman wrote:
Thu, 14. Jan 21, 09:15
I honestly don't think that X5 will do it. One thing that is obvious is that Egosoft is moving in a specific direction with the X games. What some of the old gamers want is a return to the plots and hooks of the old X games while having everything in the new ones as well. Honestly that cannot work. In creating a real background simulation for X4, they have locked themselves out of spawning in fleets specifically for missions and patrols and for sector defense etc. That is gonna prevent you from having super exciting escort missions where you fend off waves of pirates to protect 3 freighters until they jump into another sector and reach the station they were headed for and then despawn. Basically, most of the things that made up the old X games are either gone or drastically changed. And that more than anything else is what makes the old folks who are stuck in the ways of the old games angry.
It is not so much anger, but disappointment. We were told this was going to be a real successor to X3, but it isn't. It is a continuation of Rebirth (not an X-game, just set in the X-universe), along with all the limited design that came with it.

capitalduty
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Re: Going through some negative feedback while planning the next 4.0 update

Post by capitalduty » Thu, 14. Jan 21, 18:32

I just read @ helix0311's post and I feel like a lot of things he is saying as a new player to X4 are also being requested by many veterans.

A quick summary if you want:

-Better control of the fleet (movement with formation, roles, control over target priorities for wingmans, smoother movement, exact 3D axis positioning ...)
-Better Faction Ai and more challenge at late game
-Combat Ai behavior improvements
-More diplomacy system (Dynamic relations between factions and also the player faction)
-System property features.
-Readjust and balance the stats wise of almost the same ships
-Improvements in the user interface in general (greater and easier control over our assets)
-Better ship assets in general (compare ships of split vendetta with many copy-paste L traders in vanilla)

Sure we know Egosoft its working on those, but sometimes I feel they could go deeper trying to iron out long standing issues and not focusing to much on non requested features that may or may not add that much to gameplay in next updates.

GCU Grey Area
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Re: Going through some negative feedback while planning the next 4.0 update

Post by GCU Grey Area » Thu, 14. Jan 21, 18:33

Graaf wrote:
Thu, 14. Jan 21, 18:23
We were told this was going to be a real successor to X3, but it isn't.
Curious why you think this. What specifically is there in X3 that you can't do in X4?

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Re: Going through some negative feedback while planning the next 4.0 update

Post by Ketraar » Thu, 14. Jan 21, 18:44

GCU Grey Area wrote:
Thu, 14. Jan 21, 18:33
Graaf wrote:
Thu, 14. Jan 21, 18:23
We were told this was going to be a real successor to X3, but it isn't.
Curious why you think this. What specifically is there in X3 that you can't do in X4?
Personally I would not bother to engage much in trying to debate this, its the same repeated odd argument since 2018. Your time to waist though. ;-)

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mr.WHO
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Re: Going through some negative feedback while planning the next 4.0 update

Post by mr.WHO » Thu, 14. Jan 21, 19:15

Personally I think that X4 lack only two things to be called true X3 sucessor:

1) Lack of content:
Things still feel like placeholders despite 3.0 status:
- many copy/paste stats
- lack of ships (e.g. Teladi 4-gun fighter, Xenon Carrier, Xenon L-size ships like destroyer, miner and freighter, Khaak ships)
- some factions are absolute placeholder (ALI, SCA, Apart from Minotaur Raider there is no proper pirate ships, hell you don't even have Duke Pirates without taking specific plot route)
- less plot missions (comparing to X3:TC - we don't have ARG/ANT plot nor TEL/MIN)
- 3.0 made race-unique Large turrets, but medium turrets still are unfinished (they don't have unique "bullets & bullet stats").
- Station interiors lack polish - like every one use only Nova as hologram and Falcon as sculpture statue. Stations have "racial" doors and corridors, but everyone use the very same generic Argon office with COMPLETELY IRRITATING PLANT IN FRONT OF THE DESK.

2) Lack of depth:
- generic missions are absolute rudimentary and have no progression (dreadful example of "kill 2x Xenon P" absolutely every single time)
- There is no Pirate Alleys and Xenon alleys exist only if you have Split DLC.
- faction Military jobs are very static and inflexible
- no-sence war missions - like deliver barelly equiped ships to faction only for them to stay in the delviery sector instead joining war efford.
- Pirate and SCA ships still "pop-out of nowhere" - hey should have some kind of black market economy and pirate ports that build ships from loot/ship decomposition or even better makeshift change (e.g. Deliver Minotaur Sentinel to turn it into Minotaur Raider - most of existing ships should have "Raider" variant for pirate conversion).
- Khaak don't have economy and have invulnerable stations



Don't get me wrong, the game turned very well from 1.0 to 3.0, but I feel like we would have to wait for 8.0 to consider X4 "finished" product.
I don't even mention you have to have Split, Terran and Boron DLC for complete experience (I do not complain because I'm more or less happy enough with Split DLC to not consider it a scam, seems like Terran DLC will be on par content/quality wise).

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Re: Going through some negative feedback while planning the next 4.0 update

Post by Dodgey » Thu, 14. Jan 21, 19:52

I have to say, I'm loving it so far, and am blown away at times by things like:

- Starting a fight then standing on the landing deck of one of my ships and watching the turrets fire, my fighters fight, my fighters land and repair etc.
- watching the crew of my larger ships at work.
- building hugely complex stations
- setting up quite complex auto trader arrangements to help other factions make or repair their ship building facilities (HOP) or to supply thier same stations so I can get my ships. It almost seems broken, but then it almost seems brillinat as well. It's a living economy. I'm currently building a huge Weapon compnent fab as there is a galaxy wide shortage.
- standing back and letting the Xenon etc fight in a controlled manner so I can earn profits off ship building. I fought them too well for a while and I quickly noticed the lack of ship orders from the othr factions.

What I'm not so mad about:

- crew levelling. I've installed the levelling mod. If I don't, my crew are so precious that I have to reload saves if I lose a ship. Now, unless its major, I live with it ane build another. Keeps the game flowing.
- missions/quest lines are still a bit uninspiring - I know, I know, it's not their speciality. My SV quest line is even totally stuck due to a bug.
- Trading AI is plain odd. I can't work out some times why my station managers don't order certain items that are running out. I've ended up creating specific tasked traders to overcome this.
- Need a way to tidy up non-fleet ships.
- The biggy - IS and OOS need to be the same! Its crazy that I can jump IS if it's an agile figher battle on my side, but if it's pure dps, I'm much better OOS . I want to be on board, or deck, when it's a big fleet battle. Even taking control of one ship totally interferes with the rest of the fleet commands. I'm currently playing the game 99% as an RTS with very little cockpit time.

Really loving it overall.

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Re: Going through some negative feedback while planning the next 4.0 update

Post by dtpsprt » Thu, 14. Jan 21, 20:15

GCU Grey Area wrote:
Thu, 14. Jan 21, 18:33
Graaf wrote:
Thu, 14. Jan 21, 18:23
We were told this was going to be a real successor to X3, but it isn't.
Curious why you think this. What specifically is there in X3 that you can't do in X4?
Split, Boron and Terrans in the base game
Different guns and turrets with real different stats in every race
Different ships/shipstats in every race
Pirates that you can be made friends or enemies with
Trading in minerals
Damage affecting damaged ships
3x variety in missions (at least)
More and interesting storylines
Damage to own (and NPC) ship from collisions
Loot collecting that works before loot despawns

To name just 10...

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Tamina
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Re: Going through some negative feedback while planning the next 4.0 update

Post by Tamina » Thu, 14. Jan 21, 20:20

I am having a Déjà-vu here

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This is Tamina. Copy Tamina to your signature to help her achieve world domination.

Waltz9
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Re: Going through some negative feedback while planning the next 4.0 update

Post by Waltz9 » Thu, 14. Jan 21, 21:54

dtpsprt wrote:
Thu, 14. Jan 21, 20:15
Split, Boron and Terrans in the base game
Different guns and turrets with real different stats in every race
Different ships/shipstats in every race
Pirates that you can be made friends or enemies with
Trading in minerals
Damage affecting damaged ships
3x variety in missions (at least)
More and interesting storylines
Damage to own (and NPC) ship from collisions
Loot collecting that works before loot despawns

To name just 10...
You should get the facts up. the collision damage is a setting you can turn on and off.
There are pirate factions you can be friend with but I have not said it would be easy. the only pirate faction with a fixed rep is SCA
As far I know Damage will affect your ships.
Storylines are building up....

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Re: Going through some negative feedback while planning the next 4.0 update

Post by MegaJohnny » Thu, 14. Jan 21, 22:14

dtpsprt wrote:
Thu, 14. Jan 21, 20:15
Damage affecting damaged ships
If you mean the speed decrease below 93% hull, I couldn't be more glad it's gone. In X3 losing shields (bar capital ships) is sort of a death sentence, because any further damage would just make you into a sitting duck.

If you don't mean that, then my apologies :oops:

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