Why is everyone wanting war in x games?

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Tya
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Re: Why is everyone wanting war in x games?

Post by Tya » Tue, 13. Aug 19, 17:47

Because the economic side of the game is already fleshed out (after the whole engine parts issue and a few others are resolved).

What's NOT fleshed out is combat. Why bother hunting down enemy ships for a measly 120k when a single haul of nividium from an automated miner brings in 400k? This is a problem that only scales up as the game goes on. Other than capping ships, there's no point even installing weapons onto your ship.

In X3 you could happily shoot your way to the top. While you can do that in X4 too, it revolves around doing nothing but capping ships. Which, frankly, is dull because now all ships will bail eventually.

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spankahontis
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Re: Why is everyone wanting war in x games?

Post by spankahontis » Tue, 13. Aug 19, 18:31

Tya wrote:
Tue, 13. Aug 19, 17:47
Because the economic side of the game is already fleshed out (after the whole engine parts issue and a few others are resolved).

What's NOT fleshed out is combat. Why bother hunting down enemy ships for a measly 120k when a single haul of nividium from an automated miner brings in 400k? This is a problem that only scales up as the game goes on. Other than capping ships, there's no point even installing weapons onto your ship.

In X3 you could happily shoot your way to the top. While you can do that in X4 too, it revolves around doing nothing but capping ships. Which, frankly, is dull because now all ships will bail eventually.
Problem with that is Trade Stations that buy Nvidium, there is no sink for it, it's broken.
Once you fill up their storage with the Nvidium they ask for? They never ask for any more Nvidium, it just sits there doing nothing.

9/10 times you're right that they just bail, just pound their shields, wait for them to recharge and repeat, eventually it will trigger the crew to abandon ship increasing your chances that they will all abandon the ship.
1/10 chance they are stubborn and will go down with the ship.
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Nort The Fragrent
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Re: Why is everyone wanting war in x games?

Post by Nort The Fragrent » Tue, 13. Aug 19, 19:46

Human error, ! An element that is slowly being replaced with Ai. Good some say , less accidents. And I agree. Yet to make a game void of error, leaves it dull and boring, a predictable outcome based on statistics.

I have been playing a sailing game for many years, It started out as real people controlling a virtual yacht around the globe. This showed by the tracks that were varied and very different from others.
Over the years more and more players have adopted to use computer routing software to get the best track through the live weather. This now makes the game dull boring and predictable, as all the top racers take the very same track around the globe, almost finishing within seconds of each other.

X4 is written with predictable results based on certain ingredients, I have watched some of the U tube, where some of you sit there for ages firing at a ship till it blows up. To be honest it is dull, boring, and plane predictable. Why do you do it?

The game requires human error, or alien error.
Yes auto pilot can take out the sleeping captain and get the ship safely to its destination. Boring. Why not introduce equipment failure, so odd stuff happens that you could not predict. ! most games have a patten, they are inherent, as they are bound by the programming rules. This patten once learnt by the player then renders the game boring.

To assume an inbound asteroid is easily taken out by using missiles is ok if said asteroid is small. A large Megalathon of an asteroid would bowl everything in its path. Missiles included.
This kind of introduction to the game can replace the predictable and for me the boring war side of the game.

For those who desire war, there ought to be certain sectors dedicated for you thugs to go and scrap the ?rap out of each other. Fine, But to have war all over the sectors, and those annoying reds that are quite frankly childish. Not very clever, and an insult to ones intelligence, making the game less believable, and silly.

What I am saying is it need not be war, guns and missiles that drive the game dynamics, there are may other opportunities to stimulate the game as-side from War.

Exsign
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Re: Why is everyone wanting war in x games?

Post by Exsign » Tue, 13. Aug 19, 22:15

Brachra wrote:
Thu, 8. Aug 19, 21:21
build FIGHT trade think?....why does everyone act like war isnt a part of X games? the motto isnt TRADING & ECONOMY SIMULATOR.

Edit: While i do realize a huge portion of the game is trading, owning stations and building your empire and amassing insane amount of credits
it kind of makes no sense to allow me to have giant fleets of capital ships if theres nothing real to do with them.

Also, I mean cmon theres Xenon, Pirates own whole sectors (SCA) not all of the factions are allied with eachother. look at ARG and HOP... theres apparently a "War" going on between the two of them but yet after 200+ Hours in my save they are still peacefully existing next to eachother. war would be nice.
Can only second this! It is boring now after having a huge fleet and nothing to do with it, I want challenge also in war. (Just sitting back and printing more and more money, well not really fun for me if this is all.)

Also, I don’t like that the universe feels so stable, I mean there are Xenon, there are wars and still nothing major happens even after ~200h in my save. Even allied with HOP to supply them and build ships for them, still nothing noticeable… You can just peacefully trade and build your empire and once you have a fleet of 50+ Destroyer, well you won, you are an unstoppable force and can wipe the system clean. Why does no faction try to stop you? They should challenge you BEFORE you are at this point.

But for those of us who like it that peaceful and just build their empire, why not make (heavy) war a different game start? Making all the factions a bit more aggressive (maybe increasingly with time so you have time in the beginning to start?). Would totally go for that!
Additionally, me and my CPU would appreciate it very much to have less stations and ships in the universe by blowing some up in the war.

All in all the universe is too silent, peaceful and stable, thus it gets boring for me once I build my stations and ships. War needs more attention from the Devs, give it some love :D

EDIT: Also what was discussed in an different thread: there are quite a few options/ideas of how and when the AI could react smarter, but of course we don't know the limit and complexity to improve that. I am placing my believe that the Devs will do it the best way once they have the time to do so (some other things had to be addressed first).

CaptainX4
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Re: Why is everyone wanting war in x games?

Post by CaptainX4 » Wed, 14. Aug 19, 14:09

Exsign wrote:
Tue, 13. Aug 19, 22:15
Brachra wrote:
Thu, 8. Aug 19, 21:21
build FIGHT trade think?....why does everyone act like war isnt a part of X games? the motto isnt TRADING & ECONOMY SIMULATOR.

Edit: While i do realize a huge portion of the game is trading, owning stations and building your empire and amassing insane amount of credits
it kind of makes no sense to allow me to have giant fleets of capital ships if theres nothing real to do with them.

Also, I mean cmon theres Xenon, Pirates own whole sectors (SCA) not all of the factions are allied with eachother. look at ARG and HOP... theres apparently a "War" going on between the two of them but yet after 200+ Hours in my save they are still peacefully existing next to eachother. war would be nice.
Can only second this! It is boring now after having a huge fleet and nothing to do with it, I want challenge also in war. (Just sitting back and printing more and more money, well not really fun for me if this is all.)

Also, I don’t like that the universe feels so stable, I mean there are Xenon, there are wars and still nothing major happens even after ~200h in my save. Even allied with HOP to supply them and build ships for them, still nothing noticeable… You can just peacefully trade and build your empire and once you have a fleet of 50+ Destroyer, well you won, you are an unstoppable force and can wipe the system clean. Why does no faction try to stop you? They should challenge you BEFORE you are at this point.

But for those of us who like it that peaceful and just build their empire, why not make (heavy) war a different game start? Making all the factions a bit more aggressive (maybe increasingly with time so you have time in the beginning to start?). Would totally go for that!
Additionally, me and my CPU would appreciate it very much to have less stations and ships in the universe by blowing some up in the war.

All in all the universe is too silent, peaceful and stable, thus it gets boring for me once I build my stations and ships. War needs more attention from the Devs, give it some love :D

EDIT: Also what was discussed in an different thread: there are quite a few options/ideas of how and when the AI could react smarter, but of course we don't know the limit and complexity to improve that. I am placing my believe that the Devs will do it the best way once they have the time to do so (some other things had to be addressed first).
except war will not give any challenge to your fleets, the AI will always be too damn stupid to bring anything other than entertaining you with their stupidity itself. resources wasted on it could be used much more on basic ai behaviour and then you could just wage war on other factions as it was pretty possible in x3 and it at least worked
a war either have to be scripted from step to step like early call of duties or have a superb ai that can simulate the same... there is no middle ground or it will be boring laughable and pitiful as is in x4

ScandyNav
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Re: Why is everyone wanting war in x games?

Post by ScandyNav » Thu, 15. Aug 19, 00:37

Skeeter wrote:
Thu, 8. Aug 19, 15:39
Just wondering why i keep seeing topics about war this war that when the x games arnt about it really its suppose to be a open ended space adventure
Because the top level product, the end of production chain, is warships and weapons. It looks kind a dumb when all this arsenal goes nowhere. Build, to build, to build further? Really?
Did you play X3:R and X3:TC ? Which is more popular? The one, where fleets got their usage, the X3:TC. At least some usage.

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Re: Why is everyone wanting war in x games?

Post by spankahontis » Thu, 15. Aug 19, 19:53

Nort The Fragrent wrote:
Tue, 13. Aug 19, 19:46
Human error, ! An element that is slowly being replaced with Ai. Good some say , less accidents. And I agree. Yet to make a game void of error, leaves it dull and boring, a predictable outcome based on statistics.

I have been playing a sailing game for many years, It started out as real people controlling a virtual yacht around the globe. This showed by the tracks that were varied and very different from others.
Over the years more and more players have adopted to use computer routing software to get the best track through the live weather. This now makes the game dull boring and predictable, as all the top racers take the very same track around the globe, almost finishing within seconds of each other.
You're kidding, the autopilot can't even traverse around a stationary asteroid.
Creating a 'self-learning AI' able to determine your attack strategy isn't going to happen, or at least anytime soon.
I can see why people opt for Multi-player opponents, a good AI is extremely hard to come by.
Nort The Fragrent wrote:
Tue, 13. Aug 19, 19:46
X4 is written with predictable results based on certain ingredients, I have watched some of the U tube, where some of you sit there for ages firing at a ship till it blows up. To be honest it is dull, boring, and plane predictable. Why do you do it?
Question should be, why do you buy X Games? Because Dogfighting has always been a big part of the game, extremely hard to avoid conflict, whether it's War or a Xenon/Pirate skirmish.
But that's the X Series; that's what it's always been.
Nort The Fragrent wrote:
Tue, 13. Aug 19, 19:46
The game requires human error, or alien error.
Yes auto pilot can take out the sleeping captain and get the ship safely to its destination. Boring. Why not introduce equipment failure, so odd stuff happens that you could not predict. ! most games have a patten, they are inherent, as they are bound by the programming rules. This patten once learnt by the player then renders the game boring.

To assume an inbound asteroid is easily taken out by using missiles is ok if said asteroid is small. A large Megalathon of an asteroid would bowl everything in its path. Missiles included.
This kind of introduction to the game can replace the predictable and for me the boring war side of the game.
All Games have this inherent flaw. It's like Difficulty settings, all they are is Buffs and Debuffs helping the AI cheat.
AI can only operate under the rules it's given, AGI is years away and even if it was here? The power needed to operate it in condensed PC Game Format? Is there even a way??
I'm all for random events happening, but if those events get you Insta-killed or don't provide you with a means to THINK your way out of a Rabbit Hole then they will just do damage to the enjoyment of the game.
I've argued for the X4 to have randomised events, like a Meteor Shower, Solar Flare, something of that nature to spice things up.
I'm sure there can be things that could be done to bring randomness into the game, but improving an AI Pilots ability to out-think you is never going to happen.

Nort The Fragrent wrote:
Tue, 13. Aug 19, 19:46
For those who desire war, there ought to be certain sectors dedicated for you thugs to go and scrap the ?rap out of each other. Fine, But to have war all over the sectors, and those annoying reds that are quite frankly childish. Not very clever, and an insult to ones intelligence, making the game less believable, and silly.

What I am saying is it need not be war, guns and missiles that drive the game dynamics, there are may other opportunities to stimulate the game as-side from War.

It's realistic, keeping with real life geo-politics. We don't get along with other Countries, so why would you assume that in the future it's all Patty-Cake?
There are limitations to the War, only the major factions are fighting each other, they wont turn on each other or the Teladi or anyone else, it's only going to be between the big 3 and the Xenon. So war isn't your only choice.
When they fix the War Mechanics eventually, one of the 3 Factions are going to lose and then the War is over. No more conflict other than Kha'ak/Xenon and Pirates. So I really can't see why it's a big deal?

A Civilian Economy on the side would be nice though for those that don't want to take part in war.
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graphicboy
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Re: Why is everyone wanting war in x games?

Post by graphicboy » Fri, 16. Aug 19, 03:00

spankahontis wrote:
Thu, 15. Aug 19, 19:53
We don't get along with other Countries, so why would you assume that in the future it's all Patty-Cake?
:lol:

Cabrelbeuk
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Re: Why is everyone wanting war in x games?

Post by Cabrelbeuk » Fri, 16. Aug 19, 04:12

An actual dynamic system of war and alliances like in Mount & Blade (simple but efficient) would be enough actually.

It makes every game feel different.

But i also agree than "total war" is boring. Don't have to get space battle at every corner to bring life in the galaxy.
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Re: Why is everyone wanting war in x games?

Post by Falcrack » Fri, 16. Aug 19, 06:02

If the game had a way to tell us well in advance when and where a major invasion would take place (say if we are allied with a faction), so that we could plan to be there when it starts and make a contribution, it would go a long ways towards making war more immersive and engaging.

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Re: Why is everyone wanting war in x games?

Post by chew-ie » Fri, 16. Aug 19, 08:04

I really liked the "layout" of the former universe better - peaceful core sectors of the factions and the "badlands" like the pirate corridor and some first bridge heads of the xenon. Combining these with different AI profiles (pirates & khaak (at least at the beginning) = harrass; xenon = total annihilation; khaak win vs xenon = total annihilation; xenon win vs khaak = khaak profile doesn't change)

And of course dangerous deep space (maelstrom and the like :!: )

That way we'd have a better starting point for various player profiles. For those who don't want to fight, the factions could be united in the fight against the xenon menace by pure diplomatic missions. Adventures types can explore the dangerous places & have their fun. Builders & traders can play in the core sectors, well knowing that it would take a long time to get dangerouse there.

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Re: Why is everyone wanting war in x games?

Post by IronSquid501 » Sat, 17. Aug 19, 08:56

I want something to challenge my trade empire, forcing me to defend my stuff, and the galaxy needs a resource sink. War fixes both of these.
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Re: Why is everyone wanting war in x games?

Post by spankahontis » Sat, 17. Aug 19, 18:18

Cabrelbeuk wrote:
Fri, 16. Aug 19, 04:12
An actual dynamic system of war and alliances like in Mount & Blade (simple but efficient) would be enough actually.

It makes every game feel different.

But i also agree than "total war" is boring. Don't have to get space battle at every corner to bring life in the galaxy.
Which you don't in the end, (Exception on the Xenon if not contained) But yeah, Egosoft trying to explain on the forums that Xenon have embraced 60's Flower Power and are sticking to their Sectors to get high?
Yep! Not going to go down well with most people with a sense of X Universe lore.

Where as once the Paranid Civil war (HOP Vs Godrealm/Argon/Antigone Republic) comes to a conclusion, the war is effectively over.
Only conflict will be between Pirates/Xenon/Kha'ak and whether you got the best deal on Claytronics?
IronSquid501 wrote:
Sat, 17. Aug 19, 08:56
I want something to challenge my trade empire, forcing me to defend my stuff, and the galaxy needs a resource sink. War fixes both of these.
To a point.. But when you get rid of the Xenon and the Civil War is over? Then you have a stagnant economy as 95% of it relies on ships being destroyed and replaced.
There needs to be a Plan B, a Separate Economy that relies on consumer spending and not military contracts and war to keep rolling? No War? No Economy.
Falcrack wrote:
Fri, 16. Aug 19, 06:02
If the game had a way to tell us well in advance when and where a major invasion would take place (say if we are allied with a faction), so that we could plan to be there when it starts and make a contribution, it would go a long ways towards making war more immersive and engaging.
+1 Absolutely.

Something like Black Rains 'Civil War in Rebirth Mod', you get the War Report that an invasion is happening in a particular Sector that they ask for assistance.
Scramble your fleets and come in guns blazing to save your allies.
That would be awesome to actually engage with your allies or even to be able to send a distress call out to your Allies (If your Relations with them are high enough) if the enemy hates you enough to send a fleet of destroyers into your space to take out your Station Administration.
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Right Comscreen Freezes and breaks :o
Xenon Nerfed :cry:

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Re: Why is everyone wanting war in x games?

Post by Socratatus » Wed, 21. Aug 19, 13:38

"Why is everyone wanting war in x games?"


Because war happens. In everything. It`s the natural state of the universe rightly or wrongly. Also it`s exciting in games.

Such a silly question.
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Re: Why is everyone wanting war in x games?

Post by spankahontis » Wed, 21. Aug 19, 14:23

Socratatus wrote:
Wed, 21. Aug 19, 13:38
"Why is everyone wanting war in x games?"


Because war happens. In everything. It`s the natural state of the universe rightly or wrongly. Also it`s exciting in games.

Such a silly question.
Like I said, we have conflicts now across the world now, genocides happening across the world, now.
That Humanity has embraced pacifism is not realistic in reality sense.

In a Fantasy universe based on actual Human history as a structure to build the the Terran/Argon lore.
To eradicate the war aspect of Humanity is just lore-breaking and generally insulting to the X Universe; especially when you bring the Xenon into account, they are merciless killing machines, how does the OP tend to explain how we deal with the Xenon' warring tendancies in a lore based fashion? You can't!

It's unrealistic Patty-Cake and it will lose what X fans we have left.
My most annoying Bugs list 3.0 Beta 3 HF1
--------------------------------

Right Comscreen Freezes and breaks :o
Xenon Nerfed :cry:

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