What makes resource probes fail?

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LameFox
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What makes resource probes fail?

Post by LameFox » Sat, 13. Apr 19, 02:18

Every now and then I launch one only to find that it reports absolutely nothing, the UI to show resources won't even appear. It is definitely surrounded by resource fields so is there some kind of bug with these, or is there some circumstance that makes them not work by design?

Is there any way around it or I just add another until one works?
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Imperial Good
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Re: What makes resource probes fail?

Post by Imperial Good » Sat, 13. Apr 19, 03:42

LameFox wrote:
Sat, 13. Apr 19, 02:18
Every now and then I launch one only to find that it reports absolutely nothing, the UI to show resources won't even appear. It is definitely surrounded by resource fields so is there some kind of bug with these, or is there some circumstance that makes them not work by design?

Is there any way around it or I just add another until one works?
If it does not show that means there are no resources nearby.

Resource probes show the logical resources available at a location. The logical resources are what mining ships use out of sector. Logical resources have nothing to do with the physical resources a player can see at a location since such asteroids are procedurally generated. For example one can drop a Resource Probe right next to a Silicon containing asteroid but have it report no Silicon because that volume of space lacks it as a logical resource.

This is best seen in Eighteen Billion. The asteroid field hook contains very little logical resources despite the player being able to physically see a lot in the field. However if one follows the tail of the field far enough away the field contains a lot of logical resources despite the visible difference being very small.

The long range scanner pings back logical resources. Pinged fog represents logical resources in that direction with thicker fog meaning a higher density of logical resources.

Falcrack
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Re: What makes resource probes fail?

Post by Falcrack » Sat, 13. Apr 19, 03:58

I wonder, are "logical resources" depleted as the area is mined?

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MakerLinux
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Re: What makes resource probes fail?

Post by MakerLinux » Sat, 13. Apr 19, 04:54

Imperial Good wrote:
Sat, 13. Apr 19, 03:42
LameFox wrote:
Sat, 13. Apr 19, 02:18
Every now and then I launch one only to find that it reports absolutely nothing, the UI to show resources won't even appear. It is definitely surrounded by resource fields so is there some kind of bug with these, or is there some circumstance that makes them not work by design?

Is there any way around it or I just add another until one works?
If it does not show that means there are no resources nearby.

Resource probes show the logical resources available at a location. The logical resources are what mining ships use out of sector. Logical resources have nothing to do with the physical resources a player can see at a location since such asteroids are procedurally generated. For example one can drop a Resource Probe right next to a Silicon containing asteroid but have it report no Silicon because that volume of space lacks it as a logical resource.

This is best seen in Eighteen Billion. The asteroid field hook contains very little logical resources despite the player being able to physically see a lot in the field. However if one follows the tail of the field far enough away the field contains a lot of logical resources despite the visible difference being very small.

The long range scanner pings back logical resources. Pinged fog represents logical resources in that direction with thicker fog meaning a higher density of logical resources.
Where did you get this information? So it implies that all the time spent going after the asteroids and gasses I see from the cockpit in those missions of finding resources were wasted - it was just a matter of luck/trial and error?

I should have used the long range scanners for it then?
Brazilian Linux-only user, https://steamcommunity.com/id/patolinux on Steam. PC I use for playing: Ryzen 7 2700 with 16 Gig RAM, NVIDIA GTX 1070 with driver 418.56, Ubuntu 18.04
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LameFox
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Re: What makes resource probes fail?

Post by LameFox » Sat, 13. Apr 19, 11:40

Hm... okay, that's kind of annoying that all the visual indication in space and on the map don't apply to any miner besides me, but I suppose it doesn't really matter besides slight irritation.
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Alan Phipps
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Re: What makes resource probes fail?

Post by Alan Phipps » Sat, 13. Apr 19, 13:59

That's a very interesting explanation from Imperial Good. It's also worth seeing this report.
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Imperial Good
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Re: What makes resource probes fail?

Post by Imperial Good » Sat, 13. Apr 19, 15:57

Falcrack wrote:
Sat, 13. Apr 19, 03:58
I wonder, are "logical resources" depleted as the area is mined?
Yes they are. However they also regenerate over time. This is partly why auto miners spread out, to prevent an area being overly depleted and mining becoming inefficient.
Where did you get this information? So it implies that all the time spent going after the asteroids and gasses I see from the cockpit in those missions of finding resources were wasted - it was just a matter of luck/trial and error?
Information was obtained by extensive player testing and reading game data files.
I should have used the long range scanners for it then?
Yes. I have had some success with it. Be aware that the pinged fog is placed closer than the actual resource fields similar to how pings are closer than the actual objects, one can see this in a very fast ship. As such if you see dense fog you will want to fly 10-20km towards it and ping again. Feel free to drop a probe each time, you can always deactivate it and reclaim it for reuse.

All the resource sites are pre-determined pretty much. Once you know where they are you can fly to them again and drop a probe (or even recycle an existing probe).
Hm... okay, that's kind of annoying that all the visual indication in space and on the map don't apply to any miner besides me, but I suppose it doesn't really matter besides slight irritation.
I imagine it is technically difficult to get the two to closely match or be directly coupled to each other. Asteroids have to be procedurally generated when the player enters a zone since they are too many, potentially even infinite, to track individually when in low attention. Additionally logical resource fields might be in strange unnatural shapes which would look bad if asteroid fields or nebula followed too closely. Instead there is a loose coupling which looks good to fly through while still allowing for mining when out of sector.

Falcrack
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Re: What makes resource probes fail?

Post by Falcrack » Sat, 13. Apr 19, 16:14

It seems to me that the number of visible, procedurally generated resource bearing asteroids in a region of space should track right along with the "logical resources" boundaries. If an area has been depleted of ore based on logical resources, you should see very few if any ore asteroids in the region. There is something wrong in the algorithm if that is what is intended, because there are many times where I see abundant amount of resource asteroids in an area of space (ie several high yield silicon asteroids), and when I drop a resource probe, if indicates no silicon. There really ought not to be this disconnect, it needs fixing.

It is more than a minor annoyance, there are many missions which require you to find resource rich areas which are made almost impossible by this disconnect between visible resource asteroids and logical resource areas.

Imperial Good
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Re: What makes resource probes fail?

Post by Imperial Good » Sat, 13. Apr 19, 18:37

Falcrack wrote:
Sat, 13. Apr 19, 16:14
It seems to me that the number of visible, procedurally generated resource bearing asteroids in a region of space should track right along with the "logical resources" boundaries. If an area has been depleted of ore based on logical resources, you should see very few if any ore asteroids in the region. There is something wrong in the algorithm if that is what is intended, because there are many times where I see abundant amount of resource asteroids in an area of space (ie several high yield silicon asteroids), and when I drop a resource probe, if indicates no silicon. There really ought not to be this disconnect, it needs fixing.

It is more than a minor annoyance, there are many missions which require you to find resource rich areas which are made almost impossible by this disconnect between visible resource asteroids and logical resource areas.
Except such a mechanic would introduce more problems. Such as unnatural boundaries for asteroid fields which reflect the logical resources in space and also that asteroid field resources may deviate from logical resources over time when a player is inside the zone.

Since mining is boring so not an activity one should be doing manually one only really only needs to care about the logical resources.

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MakerLinux
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Re: What makes resource probes fail?

Post by MakerLinux » Sat, 13. Apr 19, 21:15

Imperial Good wrote:
Sat, 13. Apr 19, 18:37
Except such a mechanic would introduce more problems. Such as unnatural boundaries for asteroid fields which reflect the logical resources in space and also that asteroid field resources may deviate from logical resources over time when a player is inside the zone.

Since mining is boring so not an activity one should be doing manually one only really only needs to care about the logical resources.
It would not introduce more problems! The unnatural boundaries for asteroid fields would not be easily noticeable and if they are, just make the procedurally generated asteroids dwindle when close to the boundaries, problem solved. And asteroid field resources deviating from logical resources is exactly what is happening now -- they would then be confined to a very specific case of a player that never leaves his/her sector, and only after a long time.

Seriously!! One of the more important aspects of any game is feedback. If the most important feedback for gathering resources (graphical feedback) is disconnected from the data, this is an outrageous bug that cannot remain unpatched!
Brazilian Linux-only user, https://steamcommunity.com/id/patolinux on Steam. PC I use for playing: Ryzen 7 2700 with 16 Gig RAM, NVIDIA GTX 1070 with driver 418.56, Ubuntu 18.04
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Falcrack
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Re: What makes resource probes fail?

Post by Falcrack » Sat, 13. Apr 19, 21:57

By the way, just doing a resource finding mission right now. Asking for 0.49 km3 silicon in Eighteen Billion. Flying through fields where I see silicon asteroids using the scanner, I drop a resource probe and do not find any resource. I use the long range scanner, and I see the blue field in the area where I am, indicating mineable resources, but again, nothing there according to the resource probe.

The only way I can figure out how to do this, is I have a mineral mining ship selected. I right click on a spot of space in the sector to mine it, and it indicates to me which resources I can mine in that spot. Most areas indicate "No resources of the correct storage type at these coordinates", even many areas which are colored to indicate minerals, but I find a few spots where it indicates ore and silicon are present. I go to that spot, drop the probe, and lo and behold, resource probe indicates ore and silicon.

There is no visible difference between the areas that have ore and silicon, and the areas that do not, in terms of which I see in scan mode and number of asteroids. Is it really too much to ask that the amount of "logical resources" in an area and the actual visible asteroids match up somewhat?

I'm with MakerLinux on this one, fixing this to make it so that visible asteroids match logical resources would not introduce more problems, and really ought to be fixed.

zazie
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Re: What makes resource probes fail?

Post by zazie » Mon, 15. Apr 19, 12:05

Correct me if I am wrong. But as far as I understand this thread you are assuming (on 'both' sides) that there are no resources if the resource probe does not show any results. Meaning: you dont see on your map the informations about how much ore and gases are available at the spot you have set the ressource probe.

This assumption is wrong. The problem is - well - simpler: After some playing time it might happen that the "yielding-results" of your ressource probes are simply not shown on the map any more (I have asked this recently in the German Section ). Apparently the bug is rare as the problem has not been commented/solved.) WHY they don't show up any more I still don't know yet. But I have set - for testing purposes - a RP at a place where one of my other RPs were set before and had shown the Yield-infos (and made a succesful mission possible). But this time, no infos were shown at all. But Miners werde there filling their Cargohold :) . I think the problem might be some "buffer-overflow" as the game sometimes refuses some functions, specially in moments where a lot of data has to be processed. You cannot access RMB - "Information" of ships in heavy fights and losing equipment, e.g.

Anyway: If you exit your game to desktop and start it again, the RPs will usually start working as intended again.

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MakerLinux
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Re: What makes resource probes fail?

Post by MakerLinux » Mon, 15. Apr 19, 13:55

zazie wrote:
Mon, 15. Apr 19, 12:05
Correct me if I am wrong. But as far as I understand this thread you are assuming (on 'both' sides) that there are no resources if the resource probe does not show any results. Meaning: you dont see on your map the informations about how much ore and gases are available at the spot you have set the ressource probe.

This assumption is wrong. The problem is - well - simpler: After some playing time it might happen that the "yielding-results" of your ressource probes are simply not shown on the map any more (I have asked this recently in the German Section ). Apparently the bug is rare as the problem has not been commented/solved.) WHY they don't show up any more I still don't know yet. But I have set - for testing purposes - a RP at a place where one of my other RPs were set before and had shown the Yield-infos (and made a succesful mission possible). But this time, no infos were shown at all. But Miners werde there filling their Cargohold :) . I think the problem might be some "buffer-overflow" as the game sometimes refuses some functions, specially in moments where a lot of data has to be processed. You cannot access RMB - "Information" of ships in heavy fights and losing equipment, e.g.

Anyway: If you exit your game to desktop and start it again, the RPs will usually start working as intended again.
So that makes it two bugs. But even if this bug you mention is corrected, the disconnect between the "real data" and the graphical presentation should be addressed.
Brazilian Linux-only user, https://steamcommunity.com/id/patolinux on Steam. PC I use for playing: Ryzen 7 2700 with 16 Gig RAM, NVIDIA GTX 1070 with driver 418.56, Ubuntu 18.04
Controllers: steam controller via sc-controller or HOTAS set: Thrustmaster Warthog + Saitek X52 Pro + MFD F-16 + brandless chinese 3-pedal USB set.

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