Please give Carriers Jump Drives

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CaptainX4
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Re: Please give Carriers Jump Drives

Post by CaptainX4 » Thu, 6. Dec 18, 17:45

Axeface wrote:
Thu, 6. Dec 18, 17:35
Vandragorax wrote:
Thu, 6. Dec 18, 17:34
I don't really get your point? Because you have teleportation you feel the universe is smaller. I feel like it's bigger because I haven't got to the point in my game yet where I have either unlocked or feel the need to use SETA or TP.

At the point when I do unlock those things, I will probably use them sparingly. Right now I haven't found the need to rush to get them as I am enjoying the vastness of space without them.

Jumpdrive has nothing to do with it, because that has been removed for additional reasons to do with moving large number of warships and/or cargo around instantly thus breaking the entire game.
He obviously hasnt thought it through.
its you 2 not thinking it through. you can just buy ships remotely anywhere from the map, no need to be there or close or have ships or radars anywhere, just click buy and they are cheap, send them remotely with autopilot to any stations or spaces or even to random capships and from that point there is no need to do anything just teleport teleport teleport teleport and you can do anything anywhere anytime. there is no need to move anything, just set up once and thats it. with jd you need to fleet up, refuel, jump to gates, fly, dock, refuel, dont even mention jd-s had range restrictions, had ships just to supply jump fuel for capitals, this was all gameplay. now its just "teleport to"

"I don't really get your point? Because you have teleportation you feel the universe is smaller. I feel like it's bigger because I haven't got to the point in my game yet where I have either unlocked" thats you problem if you cant understand... your argument for teleportation against jd is that you dont use it :D :D :D lol how would it be different with jumpdrive?

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Axeface
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Re: Please give Carriers Jump Drives

Post by Axeface » Thu, 6. Dec 18, 17:52

Ok so you buy a scout remotely and send it somewhere you want to be... what do you do then!? I have no idea what your point is, i really dont.
The fleet management side of things is all still there... but now you need to have more than one fleet... in X3 you just needed one because they could be anywhere.

CaptainX4
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Re: Please give Carriers Jump Drives

Post by CaptainX4 » Thu, 6. Dec 18, 18:01

Axeface wrote:
Thu, 6. Dec 18, 17:52
Ok so you buy a scout remotely and send it somewhere you want to be... what do you do then!? I have no idea what your point is, i really dont.
The fleet management side of things is all still there... but now you need to have more than one fleet... in X3 you just needed one because they could be anywhere.
yes you need more than one fleet... and? they are cheap, they are fully automated you can remote buy them and send them anywhere just from the map without ever interacting with them. so what has changed? in x3 you needed one fleet and been jumping them around, except you had to still manage their fitting fueling and navigating due to range restrictions and if there were more than one encounters you still needed more than one fleet. in x4 now you just buy more fleets, send them to each corners and teleport between them without any management as you can just them up and say fly to. where is the extra management in it? nowhere... its pretty moot to be honest

CaptainX4
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Re: Please give Carriers Jump Drives

Post by CaptainX4 » Thu, 6. Dec 18, 18:04

sd_jasper wrote:
Thu, 6. Dec 18, 17:37
CaptainX4 wrote:
Thu, 6. Dec 18, 17:30
csaba wrote:
Thu, 6. Dec 18, 16:22


You love having hostile ships appear randomly atop your expensive stations? Dear god not all of us are masochists, may I say the majority of us are not. :-o
what are you even talking about? jump drives were locked to gates and jump beacons. maybe personal jump beacons should only work for those having a licence to it (aka depend on rank), there would be no way for such surprise attacks. if the enemy would jump into your sector that would be all about defending your assets, fighting a war, exactly what this game should be about :D
And outside of the Terran systems... every sector had a jump gate. The fact that the Xenon didn't just jump their whole fleet into Argon Prime, destroy every single thing, then Jump over to Kingdom's End, etc. etc... till they have rolled the whole universe was dumb. Jump Drive (used intelligently) would destroy and sense of system security.

Good riddens to Jump Drive!
because only xenon had ships right? :D if that would be simulated all argon boron etc could jd there and have an epic fight so your argument is just about nonsense. an enemy fleet by logic wouldnt do such thing, just as no argon fleet would jump into the middle of a xenon sector its the same the other way around

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Axeface
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Re: Please give Carriers Jump Drives

Post by Axeface » Thu, 6. Dec 18, 18:14

CaptainX4 wrote:
Thu, 6. Dec 18, 18:01
Axeface wrote:
Thu, 6. Dec 18, 17:52
Ok so you buy a scout remotely and send it somewhere you want to be... what do you do then!? I have no idea what your point is, i really dont.
The fleet management side of things is all still there... but now you need to have more than one fleet... in X3 you just needed one because they could be anywhere.
yes you need more than one fleet... and? they are cheap, they are fully automated you can remote buy them and send them anywhere just from the map without ever interacting with them. so what has changed? in x3 you needed one fleet and been jumping them around, except you had to still manage their fitting fueling and navigating due to range restrictions and if there were more than one encounters you still needed more than one fleet. in x4 now you just buy more fleets, send them to each corners and teleport between them without any management as you can just them up and say fly to. where is the extra management in it? nowhere... its pretty moot to be honest
Whats moot? I still dont understand what you are talking about. Your entire arguement is that you want ships to use fuel?

Humour me. Imagine you are playing both X3AP and X4, and in both games you decide that you want to attack Argon Prime and destroy their shipyard, the Argon are hostile to you. Your fleet is 4 sectors away from Argon Prime in both games, all sectors in-between are Argon space. What happens in each game?

MaGicBush
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Re: Please give Carriers Jump Drives

Post by MaGicBush » Thu, 6. Dec 18, 18:24

I'll second carriers getting jump drives. Or at least being able to repair and rearm missiles. I'm not getting why people are against it lol. If you don't like it just don't use it I guess?

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mr.WHO
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Re: Please give Carriers Jump Drives

Post by mr.WHO » Thu, 6. Dec 18, 18:29

JD will not solve carrier problem. They more need an ability to repair & rearm their docked ships otherwise they will be nothing more than glorified TM.

CaptainX4
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Re: Please give Carriers Jump Drives

Post by CaptainX4 » Thu, 6. Dec 18, 18:42

Axeface wrote:
Thu, 6. Dec 18, 18:14
CaptainX4 wrote:
Thu, 6. Dec 18, 18:01
Axeface wrote:
Thu, 6. Dec 18, 17:52
Ok so you buy a scout remotely and send it somewhere you want to be... what do you do then!? I have no idea what your point is, i really dont.
The fleet management side of things is all still there... but now you need to have more than one fleet... in X3 you just needed one because they could be anywhere.
yes you need more than one fleet... and? they are cheap, they are fully automated you can remote buy them and send them anywhere just from the map without ever interacting with them. so what has changed? in x3 you needed one fleet and been jumping them around, except you had to still manage their fitting fueling and navigating due to range restrictions and if there were more than one encounters you still needed more than one fleet. in x4 now you just buy more fleets, send them to each corners and teleport between them without any management as you can just them up and say fly to. where is the extra management in it? nowhere... its pretty moot to be honest
Whats moot? I still dont understand what you are talking about. Your entire arguement is that you want ships to use fuel?

Humour me. Imagine you are playing both X3AP and X4, and in both games you decide that you want to attack Argon Prime and destroy their shipyard, the Argon are hostile to you. Your fleet is 4 sectors away from Argon Prime in both games, all sectors in-between are Argon space. What happens in each game?
so you build your entire gameplay on a fixed situation? :D well, i tell you what would happen, in x3ap if you have a small fleet you jump in to argon prime and die in no time for the station defenses and the argon homefleet. if you have a big enough fleet, you jump in, have an epic fight, most probably you will still lose but had a joy, when you had enough you jump your fleet out so you can recover. if you have an epic fleet you might jump in, desrtoy argon prime then jump out

in x4 if you have a small fleet, you send in on the highways, nobody will stop them, they cant, teleport into your fleet, get beaten, teleport out to dont die, if you have a big fleet, just walk in and destroy argon prime, they cant oppose you, it will be a massacre. if you have an epic fleet just send them there remotely and let them destroy everything... you dont need to take part

BUT the point is not this. the game does NOT revolt around a single mechanism. if we just think of the two methods of moving around jd at least had a gameplay involved while teleportation is simply a cheat that is normally unlocked in games with secretive codes and not a core mechanism :D and its not about me wanting my ships using fuel, if thats all you get from it then this entire conversation is moot...

recnelis
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Re: Please give Carriers Jump Drives

Post by recnelis » Thu, 6. Dec 18, 18:54

For those concerned with the (I dont want carriers jumping on top of my base) argument.. Lets just add a station module that can be installed to inhibit jump drives in an area around the starbase.. It could be an extreme area as far as Im concerned.

Like mentioned above.. there is nothing stopping your fleet from travel driving all the way to enemy stations now with 0 resistance if your not in the sector with them.

Travel drives can NOT be canceled unless you destroy the engines before it kicks off.. The only ships that you can possibly stop from spining up their travel drives are XL and L ships. All other ships dont have (modules) for you to destroy and have only hull damage.

This means currently in every scenario, a fleet of Ms and S sized vessels is superior in every way to capital ships.

otto_deluxe
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Re: Please give Carriers Jump Drives

Post by otto_deluxe » Thu, 6. Dec 18, 19:11

I support jump drives for L/XL ships for a simple reason: If you activate travel drive, it charges for what feels like 5 minutes, accellerates you to roughly 1000m/s, then randomly shuts down. Then again charging, you move roughly 5km, again random shutdown. A M sized freighter on regular engines outruns a carrier using its travel drive, since an average of maybe 220m/s with all the shutdowns makes getting anywhere just plain infuriating. And that in addition to the fact that just buying 45 fighters for the cost of a single carrier means roughly 40 times the DPS, harder to shoot down, and you're much faster to respond to threats anywhere.

Vlyxnol
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Re: Please give Carriers Jump Drives

Post by Vlyxnol » Thu, 6. Dec 18, 19:22

Please NO!

Teleport replacing Jump drives is one of the best changes in X4. It offers an important element of strategy to the game and gives many options when conquering / defending sectors. If you have no jump drives you can focus your defense on the most forward jump gate and prepare for epic battles when the enemy comes to retake sectors. However if you start giving ships Jump Drives you once again will need to split and spread your forces and will have a bunch of random small battles instead of large ones. I've seen mention of many small problems that have other solutions than just reintroducing jump drives, give the devs time to make the current system work.

The Cuban Nightmare
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Re: Please give Carriers Jump Drives

Post by The Cuban Nightmare » Thu, 6. Dec 18, 19:34

I am on the fence about this, but am thinking that capital ships should not get jumpdrives but instead much faster travel drives or something similar to split the difference. That said, carriers and destroyers probably need to be tuned up a bit more and a carrier definitely needs to be able to repair and rearm ships. The way I see it, a carrier or a battleship are massive assets which you use to punch a hole where you need it. They don't move quickly, but they make a big impact where they are located. A carrier wing by itself would at risk from attrition and having a carrier providing a repair point would extend its lifespan and thereby add value. I have no idea what to do about destroyers though since they are not bases.
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BGrey
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Re: Please give Carriers Jump Drives

Post by BGrey » Thu, 6. Dec 18, 20:37

Carrier does seem pointless and should be fixed.... just not by adding jump drives.

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Morkonan
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Re: Please give Carriers Jump Drives

Post by Morkonan » Thu, 6. Dec 18, 22:09

Lyth wrote:
Thu, 6. Dec 18, 11:59
...Am guessing you were drowned out by screaming toddlers, saw it happen during the XR development, I didn't want to watch it for X4....
To be fair, there is a viable and logical answer - "Because the game is not designed for the use of jump drives."

IOW - Adding jump drives might negatively impact the play experience.

OK, I can actually understand that. But, that does mean that certain things have to be done... like giving carriers a purpose other than being just a place that collects fighters and stores them.

Not trying to rehash the old "Jump Drive" thread, but there's something important I think that often gets overlooked - Jump Drives add "complexity" to the game in X3TC, especially in "Fleet Actions." Jumping several ships into a sector at once is NOT an "I Win" situation and it's extremely complicated, fraught with the possibility of disastrous error. For instance, one can't just jump everything in a fleet to one Jump Gate. Why? They'll "que up" and take forever to get there while individual ships that actually make it are pounded by whatever is on the other side. Jumping to multiple gates in the targeted system adds "Tactics" to the Jump Drive mechanic, allowing for more ships to get there, faster, and allowing for "Tactical Positioning," almost like a flanking maneuver.

But, OK, no Jump Drives... message received and understood. That's one "fiddly bit" gone from the game mechanics. Got it. So.... What was added in its place to serve a similar need?

That's the thing - When you take something away, you have to put something back. If you don't, then whatever you're building is less than what was there before. Ships could always meander through a Jump Gate using standard drives, so that's not it. Maybe let certain ships have some interesting abilities to replace the fiddly-bit lost with the Jump Drive mechanic? I dunno... It seems as if the most logical choice, being carriers that serve logistical and tactical support (sensors, C&C functions, etc) for the fighters they, carry doesn't appear to be the case according to these reports.

I'm fine with no jump drives, but not fine with nothing to replace their tactical and strategic "fiddly bits" that added a lot of subtlety to certain gameplay actions in the game.

Dunno... Going to try to get it up and running on an old 'puter this weekend, just so I don't have to keep adding the disclaimer that I have yet to play the game. :)

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mr.WHO
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Re: Please give Carriers Jump Drives

Post by mr.WHO » Thu, 6. Dec 18, 22:47

Lyth wrote:
Thu, 6. Dec 18, 11:59
...Am guessing you were drowned out by screaming toddlers, saw it happen during the XR development, I didn't want to watch it for X4....

XR didn't had carriers, but badly needed them.
X4 has carriers, but don't need them nor find any use for them.

What an irony :(

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