[WIP] X Rebirth: The New Frontier

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Vectorial1024
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Re: [WIP] X Rebirth: The New Frontier

Post by Vectorial1024 » Tue, 23. Oct 18, 16:45

Thufar wrote:
Tue, 23. Oct 18, 04:41
So, as I began my quest of learning how to play TNF, Thufar asked "Self, why did they choose to make the two ship parts in Civ Ship Parts Lot?'" Answer, if I understand it correctly, it seems it was needed very early on to make the station work, as opposed producing absolutely nothing. That make sense except, vanilla Civ Ship Parts Lots work now. Conclusion, the two ship parts don't "have" to be made at the Civ Ship Parts Lot.
At first, only the Ship Parts were produced in the Civ Ships Parts Lot. (It fits; you see, "Ship Parts" inside "Civ Ship Parts Lot"; that's how I understand it.)
Thufar wrote:
Tue, 23. Oct 18, 04:41
...and it would be appropriate to point out here that I assume that what is displayed in the station information in the game reflects the actual programming.
It was later when we decided to try Ship Parts (Weapons) (which is basically Weapon Parts), did we add in the Ship Parts (Weapons) into the production cycles. But yeah, we kind of added this as an early Alpha feature, so everything is as chaotic as they have ever been.
Thufar wrote:
Tue, 23. Oct 18, 04:41
Then Thufar asks himself "Self, why do they make Ship Parts, Ship Parts (Weapons) and then go through an assembly run? Answer (a huge and probably incorrect assumption made here) is probably that's they way the old program did it. Conclusion, that's not necessarily the way it has to be done now.
I'm not really in a position to comment on Ship Parts; that's too much history piled on top of it.

For the Ship Parts (Weapons), ...! Of course, we will want Ship Parts (Weapons) to be made similarly compared to Ship Parts. This is what I am trying to do. I want to submit a set of numbers that is fit for producing Ship Parts (Weapons). (I actually thought it might be possible to just override the Turret Forge modules to produce Ship Parts (Weapons) with the set of numbers I come up with.) But, there were some problems. And as we patched the code one by one, it resulted in the rather bizarre situation we are now in. (There were so many patches and methods I am not sure which one we are using...)
Thufar wrote:
Tue, 23. Oct 18, 04:41
...and it would be appropriate to point out here that I assume that what is displayed in the station information in the game reflects the actual programming.
Too many variables and uncertainties; have to place-hold it...
Thufar wrote:
Tue, 23. Oct 18, 04:41
So, like the two people shaking hands - one hand fitting into the other, so goes ship parts and Civ Ship Parts Lot. It seems that the programmers have it cemented in their minds that Ship Parts must be produced in a Civ Ship Parts Lot. To the best of my understanding, that simply doesn't have to be the case. Why not use another station as a template that has unchanging production runs? Take a High Tech Fab for instance - it has two Bio-Optics Fac, two Chip Fabs and two ScannAr Facilities - period. Any one of those production runs in that factory only produce one thing - ever.

Can a programmer not duplicate what ever programming is required to make a High Tech Fab and change the name to Ship Parts Fab. Can a programmer change the two Bio-Optics Fac production runs to Ship Parts (Weapons) Fac. Can that programmer change the four other production runs to Ship Parts Fab.

Would you not then have a stable production facility?
(Urge to buy X4 intensifies)

X4 improved upon X Rebirth (and previous X-games) by giving us a GUI to plan stations. Under the hood, station blueprints in X Rebirth are hard-coded. One does not simply swap out modules and call it a day; one must also make sure that the new module fits well, and does not block space and pathways.

So... if you really want a "new station", as in, completely new, never-before-seen-in-vanilla, you gotta do a lot of coding. That's where the pain begins. Just looking at the quaternions is making my mind melt. Also consider the certain "architecture styles" employed by the Albionians, Canterans, Omicronians, Teladi, and yada yada.

However, I find that designing Omicron Lyrae stations is by far the easiest. Everything is so modular that you could make something symmetrical and really call it a day.

And also: a new object model would be required if you really want a new station component to produce Ship Parts. (I don't mean repurposing existing station components; like, completely new, never-before-seen new.) No one ever knows where to find such designers...

So yeah. To conclude: technical aspects (as in coding) is ok to change. But the visual aspects? They would require too much work to make it worthwhile. Would resort to repurposing existing components.
Computer Science student, reporting for duty. College gon be tough, so no need to be rush.

X4 Foundations mod: Civilian Fleets: Managing your civilian ships has never been easier.

Will I survive into the next month? Let's ask the RNG.

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Re: [WIP] X Rebirth: The New Frontier

Post by BlackRain » Fri, 26. Oct 18, 01:40

what exactly is the issue? It shouldn't be a problem to create a new station which only produces ship parts. Maybe I am misunderstanding, I don't feel like reading every post hah. Can someone summarize the issue for me. Even though I am not currently working on the mod (which is a WIP and not listed as MOD for a reason heh), I certainly know what can or can not be done or at least a work around maybe.

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Re: [WIP] X Rebirth: The New Frontier

Post by Kane Hart » Fri, 26. Oct 18, 05:52

BlackRain wrote:
Fri, 26. Oct 18, 01:40
what exactly is the issue? It shouldn't be a problem to create a new station which only produces ship parts. Maybe I am misunderstanding, I don't feel like reading every post hah. Can someone summarize the issue for me. Even though I am not currently working on the mod (which is a WIP and not listed as MOD for a reason heh), I certainly know what can or can not be done or at least a work around maybe.
Find a way to give someone else main thread or update it ;)

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Marvin Martian
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Re: [WIP] X Rebirth: The New Frontier

Post by Marvin Martian » Fri, 26. Oct 18, 09:53

Add an small update regarding the Crew problems at HV/XEN Start - Xenon should have her people in Malstrom now (actually only MA/OL/AL adjusted, once later will update DLC and other spaces too)

Thufar
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Re: [WIP] X Rebirth: The New Frontier

Post by Thufar » Fri, 26. Oct 18, 17:21

BlackRain wrote:
Fri, 26. Oct 18, 01:40
what exactly is the issue? It shouldn't be a problem to create a new station which only produces ship parts. Maybe I am misunderstanding, I don't feel like reading every post hah. Can someone summarize the issue for me. Even though I am not currently working on the mod (which is a WIP and not listed as MOD for a reason heh), I certainly know what can or can not be done or at least a work around maybe.
Dag nagget, I typed all this up, hit submit, and got sent to login screen. So, here goes again.

Hi BlackRain, it appears I've struck an unintended bad chord. I've been asking questions about the introduction of two ship part wares, and why in an attempt to understand why and help with the problem.

First, I am not a programmer, therefore not a modder. Just a player, and my observations are from in-game.

Second, the Civ Ship Parts Lot (Ship Parts) consumes and inordinate amount of plasma flow regulators, iirc, and causes a situation similar to the old RMP shortage problem. It appears a player must now build 5 or more stations to produce enough PFRs to support one Civ Ship Parts Lot (Ship Parts), and that seems inordinately high. Of course, no ship parts = no CVs = no new stations to build PFRs....

Third, it appears to me, there's a flood of underlying products in this mod, making ship part production "the" best way to make money in the trading aspect of this mod and that is broken.

Fourth, of the two production runs in the Civ Ship Parts Lot (Ship Parts), the Ship Part production seems to be stable. The Ship Part (Weapons) is another story. Depending on when you look at that production run, it can display production as "(quantity here) Ship Part (Weapons)" or "(same quantity here) Ship Part". Also, it appears the needed resources display change, as well as the quantity thereof. I now understand part of that problem is the assembly run, but that is only part of the problem I am describing here.

Fifth, my ignorant/unknowledgeable thinking was that the problem lay with the use of the variable production in the Civ Ship Parts Lot as the template for ship parts production and why wasn't a more stable production facility used, or why one couldn't be used.

Apologies to any and all if I've given the appearance of "questioning" anyone. This is just me, the ignorant, trying to ask questions and offer possible solutions.

Regards,
Thufar

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Drewgamer
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Re: [WIP] X Rebirth: The New Frontier

Post by Drewgamer » Fri, 26. Oct 18, 18:16

BlackRain wrote:
Fri, 26. Oct 18, 01:40
what exactly is the issue? It shouldn't be a problem to create a new station which only produces ship parts. Maybe I am misunderstanding, I don't feel like reading every post hah. Can someone summarize the issue for me. Even though I am not currently working on the mod (which is a WIP and not listed as MOD for a reason heh), I certainly know what can or can not be done or at least a work around maybe.
Kane Hart wrote:
Fri, 26. Oct 18, 05:52
Find a way to give someone else main thread or update it ;)
I realize that its a WIP and not a released mod, but perhaps it would be a good idea to turn over control of the thread to someone who can maintain it a bit better :P
Check out my mod Crystal Rarities

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Re: [WIP] X Rebirth: The New Frontier

Post by BlackRain » Sat, 27. Oct 18, 01:29

Thufar wrote:
Fri, 26. Oct 18, 17:21
BlackRain wrote:
Fri, 26. Oct 18, 01:40
what exactly is the issue? It shouldn't be a problem to create a new station which only produces ship parts. Maybe I am misunderstanding, I don't feel like reading every post hah. Can someone summarize the issue for me. Even though I am not currently working on the mod (which is a WIP and not listed as MOD for a reason heh), I certainly know what can or can not be done or at least a work around maybe.
Dag nagget, I typed all this up, hit submit, and got sent to login screen. So, here goes again.

Hi BlackRain, it appears I've struck an unintended bad chord. I've been asking questions about the introduction of two ship part wares, and why in an attempt to understand why and help with the problem.

First, I am not a programmer, therefore not a modder. Just a player, and my observations are from in-game.

Second, the Civ Ship Parts Lot (Ship Parts) consumes and inordinate amount of plasma flow regulators, iirc, and causes a situation similar to the old RMP shortage problem. It appears a player must now build 5 or more stations to produce enough PFRs to support one Civ Ship Parts Lot (Ship Parts), and that seems inordinately high. Of course, no ship parts = no CVs = no new stations to build PFRs....

Third, it appears to me, there's a flood of underlying products in this mod, making ship part production "the" best way to make money in the trading aspect of this mod and that is broken.

Fourth, of the two production runs in the Civ Ship Parts Lot (Ship Parts), the Ship Part production seems to be stable. The Ship Part (Weapons) is another story. Depending on when you look at that production run, it can display production as "(quantity here) Ship Part (Weapons)" or "(same quantity here) Ship Part". Also, it appears the needed resources display change, as well as the quantity thereof. I now understand part of that problem is the assembly run, but that is only part of the problem I am describing here.

Fifth, my ignorant/unknowledgeable thinking was that the problem lay with the use of the variable production in the Civ Ship Parts Lot as the template for ship parts production and why wasn't a more stable production facility used, or why one couldn't be used.

Apologies to any and all if I've given the appearance of "questioning" anyone. This is just me, the ignorant, trying to ask questions and offer possible solutions.

Regards,
Thufar
For your second point, isn't this something which could easily be changed by editing the amount of plasma flow regulators it takes to build a ship part? Seems like a simple fix to me.

Third point, I think the point is that ship part production SHOULD be the best way to make money. Think about it, wouldn't the parts needed for ships (and ships themselves) be extremely profitable in space? Why is that broken? Isn't it a choice to choose whether to trade in those things or not? This is something which could easily be changed though just by playing around with buy/sell prices.

Fourth point, I guess a separate production line that focuses on ship part weapons alone would be sufficient. I haven't really looked at these aspects of the mod in a long time.

Fifth, not sure what you mean here. Are you asking why we didn't just make a specific station to only focus on 'ship parts'?

conquestor
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Re: [WIP] X Rebirth: The New Frontier

Post by conquestor » Sun, 28. Oct 18, 00:10

I found an issue with capturing pirate tech shipyards. When captured you can't click the "Production modules" section and it immediately crashes the UI, you have to alt + tab to fix it. Also, the ship dealers become "unknown" job type, and never change faction, so if you board a shipyard, you can't actually produce any ships from it.

*Edit* Actually, I loaded my save and made peace with the station, and it seems like there's just no capital ship dealer there, only a small ship dealer who stays red when I take it over.

No idea why they have 3-4 enemy "unknown" traders though.

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Re: [WIP] X Rebirth: The New Frontier

Post by Seon » Sun, 28. Oct 18, 07:11

conquestor wrote:
Sun, 28. Oct 18, 00:10
No idea why they have 3-4 enemy "unknown" traders though.
Do they have a ? icon? I've noticed some NPCs like this cropping up now and then on stations. I couldn't find any pattern to this though, as it seemed to happen everywhere.

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Marvin Martian
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Re: [WIP] X Rebirth: The New Frontier

Post by Marvin Martian » Sun, 28. Oct 18, 11:27

@conquestor
Had you used latest build or an older one?
The production issue is an vanilla UI Problem and may solved with „Improved Object Menue“ latest or upcomming patch - anyway NF have a workaround, that should solve this too

Do you have set a new Manager at the Station? With this action Shitrader may set

bitvoid
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Re: [WIP] X Rebirth: The New Frontier

Post by bitvoid » Sun, 28. Oct 18, 12:23

Marvin Martian wrote:
Sun, 28. Oct 18, 11:27
The production issue is an vanilla UI Problem and may solved with „Improved Object Menue“ latest or upcomming patch - anyway NF have a workaround, that should solve this too
Yes, this seems to be the exact issue I'm currently discussing with MegaJohnny in the "Improved Object Menu" mod thread. The current version doesn't have it fixed yet but I think there will be an updated version not too far ahead.

conquestor
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Re: [WIP] X Rebirth: The New Frontier

Post by conquestor » Sun, 28. Oct 18, 13:34

Seon wrote:
Sun, 28. Oct 18, 07:11
conquestor wrote:
Sun, 28. Oct 18, 00:10
No idea why they have 3-4 enemy "unknown" traders though.
Do they have a ? icon? I've noticed some NPCs like this cropping up now and then on stations. I couldn't find any pattern to this though, as it seemed to happen everywhere.
Yeah they do.
Marvin Martian wrote:
Sun, 28. Oct 18, 11:27
@conquestor
Had you used latest build or an older one?
The production issue is an vanilla UI Problem and may solved with „Improved Object Menue“ latest or upcomming patch - anyway NF have a workaround, that should solve this too

Do you have set a new Manager at the Station? With this action Shitrader may set
Ahh ok, so it's a vanilla bug. Then everything's working fine :) I was just expecting a capital ship dealer in the Pirate tech shipyard.

I'm using the 10/18 version, but I'll update. I staffed it with a manager/defense officer and they seem to be working fine. The small ship dealer in the station stays as Sovereign Syndicate (Enemy) when I capture it/put in a new manager though. Is that expected?

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Re: [WIP] X Rebirth: The New Frontier

Post by TempestZ » Tue, 30. Oct 18, 15:16

Hello, I have a question

So I started a free game (devries start) just to check if it works, saw some new stations in Devries, all was well.

Then I noticed the plot start works too and I started that, but when I got to devries, stations were placed differently than vanilla, the ROC Castle in Glaring Truth is not in the center, but way up high, same for the shipyard.

Is this intentional, are maps a little different in plot start or am I running into a bug? All the stations seem to be all over the place

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Marvin Martian
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Re: [WIP] X Rebirth: The New Frontier

Post by Marvin Martian » Tue, 30. Oct 18, 15:52

Most Stations are placed at buildspots at NF, this allows to place them different with each start, used buildspot is random, only zone and type is specified so exact position is each gamestart different beside special stations

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Re: [WIP] X Rebirth: The New Frontier

Post by TempestZ » Tue, 30. Oct 18, 16:26

Marvin Martian wrote:
Tue, 30. Oct 18, 15:52
Most Stations are placed at buildspots at NF, this allows to place them different with each start, used buildspot is random, only zone and type is specified so exact position is each gamestart different beside special stations
Thanks for the response. I also noticed the RoC Habbitations from Glaring Truth seem to be missing. Is that also intended?

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