For whole "target audience" and mr. L Bernd

[steelgrey75]

@steelgrey75: On the contrary, just because you do not like my answer does not mean I am "skirting the issue". If players depend on reviews for being informed then whether the review is one day or one year after initial release it will make no difference. The absence of official reviews would be the cause to pause.

You answer was not relevant to the question. It was ;

I think you missed my point - which was that I do not believe the game is in a fit state for a reviewer to make an objective assessment of the game.

What do you mean? Its not ready for a review? Its been released hasn't it? Money was taken from my bank account to pay for it. Its a product that anybody can buy for money. If its at the stage then its fit for a review. They don't write reviews and score them on future potential, they review what has been given to them.[/quote]

To which you replied ;

[You probably missed my earlier point, the reviews are as they are... done, water under the bridge and all that... but even by Bernd's own admittance it would have been released as an Early Access game had the option been available to them (which apparently it was not due to contractual commitments). Given this, X-Rebirth would more probably be fairly due a second review chance at some point in the future. Whether it will get it or not is probably rather moot at the end of the day as the damage has already been done in many people's eyes.

This leads on to the point I made in response to the First part of your response to my post. Bad reviews is not a good reason for people to start pushing their own agenda in a non-constructive fashion on the forums for the reviewed item - especially when there are a quorum of people who do support the reviewed item.

So, to make it simpler, I will ask it in a different way.
You have stated that in your opinion the game is not in a fit state to be reviewed right now. You would like it to be reviewed again when it has been fixed.
So my question is why you think then that the reviews in your opinion are all worthless?
If you do, and if your reason is that the game is not in a fit state to be reviewed right now, then I would argue that the game MUST be reviewed as it is right now.
This is because its on sale today, for £39.99 on steam, the public can buy this game right now. So reviews are helpful sometimes when choosing a game, not always but they give you ideas. People need to know about this game and its downfalls, here, today. There are those that say the reviewers are not objective, but I would say I would trust a review of a space sim to be done by a fan of space sims, than somebody who hasn't played any space sims at all. Only a person who has not played these games can view it objectively and not pick out the design choices and changes. The only way anybody can form an objective opinion is when they have not been influenced by past experiences.
Of course this also is my opinion, and I just wanted you to say your reasons as to why you don't think reviews right now are a fair reflection.

[Santi]

One thing you can say for Egosoft is that the support for the games has always been superb, and not only adding their own work, but that of the community as well.

[Commonsens]

LOL!

Don't you feel stupid to pay good money for something that does not work properly and then, work for FREE to fix it? What's even more hilarious is that after all that, the Dev use your free work to make more money.

Darn! I Wish I taught of that: Got tons of BROKEN down crap here that, with that logic, can sell to a lot of you guys as if they where in MINT condition after you worked on them for FREE!

Brilliant.

[Teleth]

@Cronos988: How is X-Rebirth developing the series in the wrong direction exactly? All along since before release it was known that V1.0 would be the starting point and Egosoft planned to evolve the game features based on end-user feedback. Ok, the initial release was poorly tested and perhaps far too simplified but Egosoft know this and are trying to address the issues as quickly as possible - such changes do not happen overnight and overwhelmingly negative forums do nothing to accelerate the process.

I don't know what direction is the right one, but the current one is certainly the right direction if they want to see ruin: http://www.metacritic.com/game/pc/x-rebirth
X3:AP finally achieved a 75 metacritic rating and was nearly accepted by the public as a good game. X:R was a highly anticipated game that many were waiting for, it was Egosofts chance to hit the bigtime.

X:R smashed that good alright.
Egosoft will be unlikely to out-live what they have created with X:R and no amount of change is going to fix perceptions of X:Rebirth and reverse the damage to the X brand name. If Egosoft haven't gotten the idea that this is the wrong direction, I'm not sure what will help.

I'd love to see another X game, but Egosoft look to be doing their damnedest to ruin themselves.

[Santi]

Modders work for free, some will accept donations, but basically is free, some of them do it to build a portfolio to help them get a job in the industry, as some companies will add them to be in the Credits, others just to contribute to a game, maybe to change the game to their tastes, or simply for reputation as an able coder/graphic artist etc. They are not stupid people, on the contrary they all are over your average IQ.

[Sam L.R. Griffiths]

@steelgrey75: Ok, let me put it more simply...

The game has been released, no denying that.

Some individuals have bought it, no denying that. The situation is little different from buying an "official" Early Access game. Egosoft games have typically been "Early Access" type games in my experience although X-Rebirth is unusually bad even for them... but as said before Water under the Bridge and all that.

Some individuals are displeased with what they bought, ok fine - some have actually applied for and got refunds for it. Others have had more difficulty, ok fine I sympathise but I do not accept it as an excuse for many of the flame posts.

If the remainder who have not purchased it are waiting for reviews before doing so then let them wait until it is truly ready, or buy it pre-review and help with it's evolution.

I am not saying that it should not be reviewed, but it is not ready to be reviewed due to the released state. It is not a question of telling official reviewers what to do and what not to do but rather indicating an opinion.

When will it be ready for review IMO, that is anyones guess at this point as Egosoft are still fire-fighting the release. When the fire-fighting is done, say in the new year, and we have an idea of the roadmap ahead Egosoft have planned then there might be an indication.

[Sam L.R. Griffiths]

Modders work for free, some will accept donations, but basically is free, some of them do it to build a portfolio to help them get a job in the industry, as some companies will add them to be in the Credits, others just to contribute to a game, maybe to change the game to their tastes, or simply for reputation as an able coder/graphic artist etc. They are not stupid people, on the contrary they all are over your average IQ.

You missed probably one of the biggest reasons... for fun.

[rpek32]

Modders work for free, some will accept donations, but basically is free, some of them do it to build a portfolio to help them get a job in the industry, as some companies will add them to be in the Credits, others just to contribute to a game

They do it, because they want, modding and bug testing not the same things.
If you dont make mods, you can still play the game, but if you do not bug-test, you cant play the game.
So here is verdict: you can play without mods, but you cant with bugs.

P.s. Its so necessary to be added to credits. conceited people so conceited

[Sam L.R. Griffiths]

@repk32: Actually, as a modder myself, quite a significant part of modding is play testing and bugs affect modders as much if not more so than those who do not develop mods. I believe the generally accepted definition of a modder are those who develop mods as opposed to those who just use mods.

[EDIT]As for Credit mentions, some just get mentions in other games just for pledging to the game. I *think* the majority of modders do not give an unmentionable whether they get added to the credits and are just happy to have helped with the game's evolution. Other modders may recognise the work of another modder in any case.[/EDIT]

[Santi]

Yeah forgot that most modders do it for fun too.

[rpek32]

@repk32: Actually, as a modder myself, quite a significant part of modding is play

you talk from modder point of view, i talk from customer point of view, so here is the difference.

customers are interested to get a good product. just get, not to participate in the development

[dzhedzho]

@steelgrey75: Ok, let me put it more simply...

The game has been released, no denying that.

Some individuals have bought it, no denying that. The situation is little different from buying an "official" Early Access game. Egosoft games have typically been "Early Access" type games in my experience although X-Rebirth is unusually bad even for them... but as said before Water under the Bridge and all that.

Some individuals are displeased with what they bought, ok fine - some have actually applied for and got refunds for it. Others have had more difficulty, ok fine I sympathise but I do not accept it as an excuse for many of the flame posts.

If the remainder who have not purchased it are waiting for reviews before doing so then let them wait until it is truly ready, or buy it pre-review and help with it's evolution.

I am not saying that it should not be reviewed, but it is not ready to be reviewed due to the released state. It is not a question of telling official reviewers what to do and what not to do but rather indicating an opinion.

When will it be ready for review IMO, that is anyones guess at this point as Egosoft are still fire-fighting the release. When the fire-fighting is done, say in the new year, and we have an idea of the roadmap ahead Egosoft have planned then there might be an indication.

So what's your point again?


Game was released, people should know what they get themselves into. It's up to people to decide who they trust. That's how it works...
Or are you again posting around accusing people of "not being constructive"?

There are enough gameplay videos showing bugs and other flaws, (and game is there if you want to encounter them firsthand). Some of us wish this flaws would be addressed...

[Sam L.R. Griffiths]

@repk32: Actually, as a modder myself, quite a significant part of modding is play

you talk from modder point of view, i talk from customer point of view, so here is the difference.

customers are interested to get a good product. just get, not to participate in the development

I am also talking from a customer point of view... modders are also customers believe it or not... and while we like to mod our games there are at least some of us that also like to play the Vanilla game as well... the two are not mutually exclusive.

[Sam L.R. Griffiths]

There are enough gameplay videos showing bugs and other flaws, (and game is there if you want to encounter them firsthand). Some of us wish this flaws would be addressed...

And from the available information Egosoft are attempting to do so... at least the parts that are agreed as being flaws/bugs. I do not agree with every decision of Egosoft's but I can not deny they have a tendency to make a playable product in the end.

[Santi]

His point is a review model that game critics used to stick to, some time ago. If you couldn't play the game as intended, you said so on your review, bit like:

X Rebirth Review: At present we cannot make a review because the game is not working and we are unable to complete the plot. A proper review will be done when we receive a game that works.

That was a honest review and one where you know where you stand for regarding the game.

[steelgrey75]

Some individuals have bought it, no denying that. The situation is little different from buying an "official" Early Access game. Egosoft games have typically been "Early Access" type games in my experience although X-Rebirth is unusually bad even for them... but as said before Water under the Bridge and all that.

Some individuals are displeased with what they bought, ok fine - some have actually applied for and got refunds for it. Others have had more difficulty, ok fine I sympathise but I do not accept it as an excuse for many of the flame posts.

If the remainder who have not purchased it are waiting for reviews before doing so then let them wait until it is truly ready, or buy it pre-review and help with it's evolution.

I am not saying that it should not be reviewed, but it is not ready to be reviewed due to the released state. It is not a question of telling official reviewers what to do and what not to do but rather indicating an opinion.

When will it be ready for review IMO, that is anyones guess at this point as Egosoft are still fire-fighting the release. When the fire-fighting is done, say in the new year, and we have an idea of the roadmap ahead Egosoft have planned then there might be an indication.

Well I was under the impression I had bought a finished game when I bought it, not an early release, I don't do early releases never have done, I am not a bug tester I am an end user. If the advertisement had said it was an Early release I would not have bought it. Its not sold as an early release, therefore its not going to be reviewed as an early release, in fact do they even review early releases?

[dzhedzho]

@repk32: Actually, as a modder myself, quite a significant part of modding is play

you talk from modder point of view, i talk from customer point of view, so here is the difference.

customers are interested to get a good product. just get, not to participate in the development

I can cook quite well. Yet when I go to a restaurant, I have this weird expectation, NOT TO participate in the meal preparation. I can drive a car, and yet I expect the taxi driver to drive. I can clean windows, and still expect the windows cleaner to do his job.
I am programmer and UX designer, yet I do not expect to participate in the design or development of any software I buy, even less software which is supposed to entertain me.

[Sam L.R. Griffiths]

Some individuals have bought it, no denying that. The situation is little different from buying an "official" Early Access game. Egosoft games have typically been "Early Access" type games in my experience although X-Rebirth is unusually bad even for them... but as said before Water under the Bridge and all that.

Some individuals are displeased with what they bought, ok fine - some have actually applied for and got refunds for it. Others have had more difficulty, ok fine I sympathise but I do not accept it as an excuse for many of the flame posts.

If the remainder who have not purchased it are waiting for reviews before doing so then let them wait until it is truly ready, or buy it pre-review and help with it's evolution.

I am not saying that it should not be reviewed, but it is not ready to be reviewed due to the released state. It is not a question of telling official reviewers what to do and what not to do but rather indicating an opinion.

When will it be ready for review IMO, that is anyones guess at this point as Egosoft are still fire-fighting the release. When the fire-fighting is done, say in the new year, and we have an idea of the roadmap ahead Egosoft have planned then there might be an indication.

Well I was under the impression I had bought a finished game when I bought it, not an early release, I don't do early releases never have done, I am not a bug tester I am an end user. If the advertisement had said it was an Early release I would not have bought it. Its not sold as an early release, therefore its not going to be reviewed as an early release, in fact do they even review early releases?

Sometimes they do, in fact reviews of the GAMESCON demo could be considered along similar lines as do some preview demo reviews (for other games) I have seen in some gaming magazines in the past.

It is unfortunate that it was not advertised as such but it is too late now, Egosoft V1.0 games have typically been early release games it has been the developer's culture for as long as I can remember. It is just unfortunate that X-Rebirth was not as advanced along the development path as has been the norm for previous Egosoft games. I think this can be attributed to the fact that X-Rebirth is a completely new engine and thus the software complexity itself probably posed them more challenges than they were expecting... but, I believe they can handle it.

[dzhedzho]

There are enough gameplay videos showing bugs and other flaws, (and game is there if you want to encounter them firsthand). Some of us wish this flaws would be addressed...

And from the available information Egosoft are attempting to do so... at least the parts that are agreed as being flaws/bugs. I do not agree with every decision of Egosoft's but I can not deny they have a tendency to make a playable product in the end.

And this is why we point them out...
In case they missed them...

[steelgrey75]

His point is a review model that game critics used to stick to, some time ago. If you couldn't play the game as intended, you said so on your review, bit like:

X Rebirth Review: At present we cannot make a review because the game is not working and we are unable to complete the plot. A proper review will be done when we receive a game that works.

That was a honest review and one where you know where you stand for regarding the game.

Oh man will you listen to yourself.
I hate stupid analogies, but I don;t see any other way of putting it.
If Ford released a new car, and the reviewers could not get it to start. Should they then write an article telling people that the car provided did not start? Also saying they will check with Ford again in a few months time and see if they have got it working.
No they should not, they should write a review of the car that was provided to them that very day. If the car did not work then the public should be told. Its totally irrelevant what might happen in the future. Maybe they will review it again, maybe not, but the review of the first car MUST stand.
I hate using cars, you could use anything, any product on sale today, the same rule applies to all of them. If an item is reviewed it is reviewed as it is right there and then, with no provisons for what might or might not happen in the future. What if Egosoft suddenly went bump overnight? Then there won't be any improvements made by them will there? So the future is irrelevant, only here and now matters when it comes to reviewing an item.